Hi, All. I'm a newbie, thinking of giving 4x5 a go. I've shot 6x6 and 6x9 film off and on over the years along with digital, but I kind of like the idea of slowing down even more. I'd be interested in knowing if folks would suggest something like a new Intrepid, vs a used Tachihara or similar in good condition? Prices seem more-or-less similar. Thanks! Joanna in Topsham
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Hello from Devon, and a newbie question
- Thread starter HonoHonu
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Hi Joanna,
You're in the right place for friendly and expert advice.
From me it will be just friendly, as I am still in the early stages of building my 5x4 knowledge.
One thing is can chip in is to consider what type/s of 5x4 photography you think you would enjoy most.
I have used an Intrepid and think that as a field camera the light weight would be helpful, but the crude movements and (in my opinion) flimsy construction put me off.
For architecture cameras with good strong (geared sometime?) rise, fall, shift and tilt should be prioritised - others can make suggestions if you indicate that is a priority.
Finally a good friend has a monorail Sinar camera because he does mostly still life, and is content that the camera is not ideal for landscape or portraits, which he also creates.
Personally I use an MPP which was a bit of an all round camera, bit heavy but strong.
Hope you ask lots of questions before you buy as a camera that puts your back out or otherwise blocks your workflow will add another problem to your learning.
Robert
You're in the right place for friendly and expert advice.
From me it will be just friendly, as I am still in the early stages of building my 5x4 knowledge.
One thing is can chip in is to consider what type/s of 5x4 photography you think you would enjoy most.
I have used an Intrepid and think that as a field camera the light weight would be helpful, but the crude movements and (in my opinion) flimsy construction put me off.
For architecture cameras with good strong (geared sometime?) rise, fall, shift and tilt should be prioritised - others can make suggestions if you indicate that is a priority.
Finally a good friend has a monorail Sinar camera because he does mostly still life, and is content that the camera is not ideal for landscape or portraits, which he also creates.
Personally I use an MPP which was a bit of an all round camera, bit heavy but strong.
Hope you ask lots of questions before you buy as a camera that puts your back out or otherwise blocks your workflow will add another problem to your learning.
Robert
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For your money, any used camera as suggested above is a WAY better option than an Intrepid (disclaimer; I bought their 10x8 and sent it straight back, total junk). Not least because you won't lose money if and when you eventually need to upgrade or sell. Look for any used tachihara, wista, gandolfi, chamonix etc etc.
Welcome Joanna ,
there is a lot of choice with large format cameras , and some basic things that can trip you up with both new and used cameras , It is quite important to do some tests for focus and light leaks with any camera setup that is new to you so that problems
can be ironed out before spoiling the experience when it matters more.
Also the amount of other gear needed kind of builds up .
Things to think about.
- loading film into the film holders can be done in a changing bag but it helped to have something to make an air space in there a cardboard box with an open side as big as will fit with the zip shut helps organise things . The pope tent types are quite nice. Sacrifice a sheet of film and use it to practice in daylight to get the feel of loading as its very common to get film miss loaded at first go in the dark.
- Developing your own film is vastly more economical than using a lab , for B&W its easy there are quite a few daylight tank solutions.
- Scanning by flat bed or with a camera gets good results but is another workflow to consider.
The kind of subject you envisage tends to nudge towards certain types of camera , but they all need a tripod, lens and film holders
a dark cloth can be improvised , a focussing loupe can help as well , A light meter can be on a phone or another camera.
There is a lot of knowledge here so feel free to ask anything .
there is a lot of choice with large format cameras , and some basic things that can trip you up with both new and used cameras , It is quite important to do some tests for focus and light leaks with any camera setup that is new to you so that problems
can be ironed out before spoiling the experience when it matters more.
Also the amount of other gear needed kind of builds up .
Things to think about.
- loading film into the film holders can be done in a changing bag but it helped to have something to make an air space in there a cardboard box with an open side as big as will fit with the zip shut helps organise things . The pope tent types are quite nice. Sacrifice a sheet of film and use it to practice in daylight to get the feel of loading as its very common to get film miss loaded at first go in the dark.
- Developing your own film is vastly more economical than using a lab , for B&W its easy there are quite a few daylight tank solutions.
- Scanning by flat bed or with a camera gets good results but is another workflow to consider.
The kind of subject you envisage tends to nudge towards certain types of camera , but they all need a tripod, lens and film holders
a dark cloth can be improvised , a focussing loupe can help as well , A light meter can be on a phone or another camera.
There is a lot of knowledge here so feel free to ask anything .
Thanks, all. I appreciate the advice (especially in regard to Intrepid).
I suppose my main use for a 4x5 might be called architectural. I tend to shoot a lot of derelict buildings & ghost signs, industrial sites, graffiti'ed trains, cemetary gates - that sort of thing. I can really get by fine with medium format and even with digital, but I like the idea of using 4x5 to make me slow down even further and think more carefully about what image I really want to capture.
Also, I tend toward making large blow-ups via Photoshop & an A3+ printer, and I hesitate to buy a really good (and really expensive) digital camera because I know it'll be obsolete in 5 years.
I have no space for a home studio, so I need something light to carry around. That's steering me toward a lightweight field camera rather than a monorail or a press camera. I've seen a few Tachiharas recently for just a little more than the Intrepid, so that may be where I'm headed.
Joanna
I suppose my main use for a 4x5 might be called architectural. I tend to shoot a lot of derelict buildings & ghost signs, industrial sites, graffiti'ed trains, cemetary gates - that sort of thing. I can really get by fine with medium format and even with digital, but I like the idea of using 4x5 to make me slow down even further and think more carefully about what image I really want to capture.
Also, I tend toward making large blow-ups via Photoshop & an A3+ printer, and I hesitate to buy a really good (and really expensive) digital camera because I know it'll be obsolete in 5 years.
I have no space for a home studio, so I need something light to carry around. That's steering me toward a lightweight field camera rather than a monorail or a press camera. I've seen a few Tachiharas recently for just a little more than the Intrepid, so that may be where I'm headed.
Joanna
there is a Wista 45 with a Fujinon lens that would match those criteria on the well known auction site at a reasonable price right now
The Wista and Tachihara are almost identical.
One of the Metal folding Wista cameras would be more robust and a similar size but slightly heavier , they are also less common in the UK.
Wooden Wista is well appreciated here and size/weight is difficult to beat.
The Wista and Tachihara are almost identical.
One of the Metal folding Wista cameras would be more robust and a similar size but slightly heavier , they are also less common in the UK.
Wooden Wista is well appreciated here and size/weight is difficult to beat.
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Hello Joanna,
My main subjects are architectural and industrial landscape and I would suggest that front rise and a 90mm lens with good coverage should be somewhere in mind, when thinking about a 5x4 camera investment. There's a good american based large format forum with heaps of good data sheets https://largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF8x10in.html Intrepid have also just released a lens explorer which is very useful if a little incomplete. https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/blogs/guides/the-large-format-lens-explorer.
After working with 5x4 for 30 years, I've just made the leap to 10x8 and 5x7 and would highly recommend missing out 5x4. Enjoy the journey and if you take the plunge buy lots of film and get working!
My main subjects are architectural and industrial landscape and I would suggest that front rise and a 90mm lens with good coverage should be somewhere in mind, when thinking about a 5x4 camera investment. There's a good american based large format forum with heaps of good data sheets https://largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF8x10in.html Intrepid have also just released a lens explorer which is very useful if a little incomplete. https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/blogs/guides/the-large-format-lens-explorer.
After working with 5x4 for 30 years, I've just made the leap to 10x8 and 5x7 and would highly recommend missing out 5x4. Enjoy the journey and if you take the plunge buy lots of film and get working!
Firstly, welcome to the forum.
Secondly, I’d take the advice to go straight to 10x8 with a small pinch of salt. 5x4 is deservedly popular for good reasons. 10x8 is delightful in many ways, but it is heavier and more expensive. I’ve tried both and returned to 5x4. I was contemplating making contact 10x8 platinum prints, but my heart failed me.
The lightness of the Intrepid is valuable if you’re carrying it across landscapes, otherwise choose whatever seems most attractive. For architecture, you’ll need a good range of movements.
Secondly, I’d take the advice to go straight to 10x8 with a small pinch of salt. 5x4 is deservedly popular for good reasons. 10x8 is delightful in many ways, but it is heavier and more expensive. I’ve tried both and returned to 5x4. I was contemplating making contact 10x8 platinum prints, but my heart failed me.
The lightness of the Intrepid is valuable if you’re carrying it across landscapes, otherwise choose whatever seems most attractive. For architecture, you’ll need a good range of movements.
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I'll echo what you are saying, @David M. I began shooting LF for work just a few months short of 50 years ago, but when I began my landscape projects in 1986 my heavy De Vere Whole plate monorail camera was just not practical, I used a 5x4 back with it.
I began using my Mamiya 645 cameras, but wanted a larger format, I considered an RB67, but I also wanted some movements. A friend had a Wist 45DX, and I realised that it would be far more practical, than a RB67. In hindsight it was definitely the right decision.
Like you I bought a 10x8 camera planning to make contact prints, and Platinum prints. when I held my first 10x8 negative I wanted to enlarge them. Back in 2004 was the LF market was at it's lowest point,lots of cameras. lenses, and enlargers, at bargain prices, I picked up a De Vere 5108 for £600 with 4 lenses and a 24"x20" Beard easel,
So while I shoot 10x8 & some 7x5 I tend to be working not far from my car. Most of the time I'm shooting 5x4 because it's so much more portable, I may be shooting for a few hours, plenty of walking, and when abroad I often shoot 5X4 hand held.
Ian
I began using my Mamiya 645 cameras, but wanted a larger format, I considered an RB67, but I also wanted some movements. A friend had a Wist 45DX, and I realised that it would be far more practical, than a RB67. In hindsight it was definitely the right decision.
Like you I bought a 10x8 camera planning to make contact prints, and Platinum prints. when I held my first 10x8 negative I wanted to enlarge them. Back in 2004 was the LF market was at it's lowest point,lots of cameras. lenses, and enlargers, at bargain prices, I picked up a De Vere 5108 for £600 with 4 lenses and a 24"x20" Beard easel,
So while I shoot 10x8 & some 7x5 I tend to be working not far from my car. Most of the time I'm shooting 5x4 because it's so much more portable, I may be shooting for a few hours, plenty of walking, and when abroad I often shoot 5X4 hand held.
Ian
Yes, and I’ve found that for everything I’ve enlarged, the difference is invisible to me.
I had to take off the darkroom door to get my own De Vere out.
I wouldn’t try to prohibit anyone from using a larger format, (I even had ambitions for 11x14) but I do think 5x4 is probably the best introduction to gaining experience of the very different procedures in all LF photography. Fairly reasonable prices, a wider spread of focal lengths in relatively modern lenses, accessible processing equipment… and so on.
And owning a 5x4 camera doesn’t preclude having a 10x8 and using them on a horses for courses basis.
I had to take off the darkroom door to get my own De Vere out.
I wouldn’t try to prohibit anyone from using a larger format, (I even had ambitions for 11x14) but I do think 5x4 is probably the best introduction to gaining experience of the very different procedures in all LF photography. Fairly reasonable prices, a wider spread of focal lengths in relatively modern lenses, accessible processing equipment… and so on.
And owning a 5x4 camera doesn’t preclude having a 10x8 and using them on a horses for courses basis.
I suspect I'll be happy to stick with 4x5 for a while. I had even thought about a very nice Horseman VH 6x9 kit that was on the Saleroom a couple of weeks ago since it still allowed a wide range of movements while being a lot cheaper to shoot and develop, but then thought 'Why not just get a 4x5 camera and a roll film back if I want to start small?' So no 8x10 for now. (Although I have to admit, I'm very infatuated with the idea of the old Polaroid 20x24!)
Hi Joanna , you explained your subject matter and portability plus space constraints - do you plan to shoot B&W and self develop ?
Are you planning to flatbed scan or in camera digital scan?
For colour a roll film back opens up possibilities as far as 6x12 with movements and is not out of reach of you have a friendly 3D printer
Are you planning to flatbed scan or in camera digital scan?
For colour a roll film back opens up possibilities as far as 6x12 with movements and is not out of reach of you have a friendly 3D printer
Hi and welcome,
I wouldn't buy anything before making sure that the 4X5 photography is for you!!! Find someone who has one, a camera club perhaps, or even hire an outfit for a week and go and try the camera. See for yourself if the routine is suitable for you. Then make a decision. The expense of the camera compared to the rest of the stuff that you need is actually quite small. There is a long list of stuff you need, and then consider that these days 25 sheets of HP5 Plus cost about £65.00. Forget colour negative, unless you happen to have deep pockets. Good luck.
There are certainly additional costs. You may need another tripod, but you may already have a suitable one. Ball-and-socket heads are tricky for 5x4. Dark slides may look expensive, but you’ll be taking fewer shots, so you don’t need many. For loading them you will need an adequate supply of darkness.
A decent loupe can be surprisingly expensive, but many people manage very well without one.
Those non-prescription glasses are used by some.
One thing to keep in mind is that although you yourself may greatly enjoy gleaming brass and polished hardwood, the film can’t see it and doesn’t care anyway.
A decent loupe can be surprisingly expensive, but many people manage very well without one.
Those non-prescription glasses are used by some.
One thing to keep in mind is that although you yourself may greatly enjoy gleaming brass and polished hardwood, the film can’t see it and doesn’t care anyway.
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You will have fun with 5x4, it's a different way of working, doesn't have to be slower, just more thoughtful, once familiar you can work quickly. It will impact your use of smaller formats or Digital, in a good way 
Ian
Ian
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A few thoughts based on getting to large format myself, and recently helping a mate get started:
- Personally I wouldn't bother trying a rent a camera first (will be impossible unless you're in London anyway). Just buy one, don't pay over the odds and if it doesn't work out you can sell for little loss, or likely make money on the deal. I'd never even seen a large format camera in person before taking the plunge. No regrets here.
- Definitely start with 5x4, not 10x8 unless you really want to stack the odds against you.
- Start out with a 150mm lens or thereabouts, don't try to start with a wide angle.
- You're using a tripod for every shot so the tripod and head becomes part of the overall system and is worth costing up something decent. Zero risk option; any used Gitzo 2 or 3 series carbon from say 10-20yrs ago and again you won't lost money if you eventually need to sell. My mate recently landed on a great deal on a very recent Benro carbon model on Vinted of all places, it's rock solid, so shop around. Or just use whatever you already have and upgrade once you have a feel for what you'd like.
- People will say you can't use a ballhead with large format. But there's ballheads and there's ballheads... some of them are the strongest pound-for-pound heads you can buy. But generally something geared or a 3-way pan/tilt better suits the large format approach. Again, an old Gitzo pan/tilt from any time in the last 50 years can be had for very little.
- Readily available loupes are a tricky one and usually involves a lot of eBay searching and some patience. I wouldn't try focussing critically without one though, to me they are 100% mandatory - why waste expensive film by just guesstimating the focus? To this end I'm amazed none of the recent upstart outfits like Intrepid and the like are not offering a decent sub-£50 loupe option.
- Darkcloth can be an old t-shirt or fleece top or something like that, personally I don't see the utility in huge unwieldy blanket-type affairs.
-Don't try to start with Fomapan, it's cheap but given it's harder to use I wouldn't class it as a beginner film, you don't really need the added headaches. My mate inherited a box of 100 with his camera, and there's odd specs all over the shots in the emulsion. Start with Ilford. If you need to save money later once your exposure and development is dialed in then that's the time to look at Foma (granted other people have their own take on this).
- Part of large format is the slowing down and all that, but also be wary of throwing needlessly time-consuming habits into the mix. Make it as slow as it needs to be, but no slower than that! The slowing down thing is really about making conscious considered decisions in a rigorous methodical workflow, not about putting hurdles in your way.
Enjoy! Moving to 5x4 was the best thing I ever did.
- Personally I wouldn't bother trying a rent a camera first (will be impossible unless you're in London anyway). Just buy one, don't pay over the odds and if it doesn't work out you can sell for little loss, or likely make money on the deal. I'd never even seen a large format camera in person before taking the plunge. No regrets here.
- Definitely start with 5x4, not 10x8 unless you really want to stack the odds against you.
- Start out with a 150mm lens or thereabouts, don't try to start with a wide angle.
- You're using a tripod for every shot so the tripod and head becomes part of the overall system and is worth costing up something decent. Zero risk option; any used Gitzo 2 or 3 series carbon from say 10-20yrs ago and again you won't lost money if you eventually need to sell. My mate recently landed on a great deal on a very recent Benro carbon model on Vinted of all places, it's rock solid, so shop around. Or just use whatever you already have and upgrade once you have a feel for what you'd like.
- People will say you can't use a ballhead with large format. But there's ballheads and there's ballheads... some of them are the strongest pound-for-pound heads you can buy. But generally something geared or a 3-way pan/tilt better suits the large format approach. Again, an old Gitzo pan/tilt from any time in the last 50 years can be had for very little.
- Readily available loupes are a tricky one and usually involves a lot of eBay searching and some patience. I wouldn't try focussing critically without one though, to me they are 100% mandatory - why waste expensive film by just guesstimating the focus? To this end I'm amazed none of the recent upstart outfits like Intrepid and the like are not offering a decent sub-£50 loupe option.
- Darkcloth can be an old t-shirt or fleece top or something like that, personally I don't see the utility in huge unwieldy blanket-type affairs.
-Don't try to start with Fomapan, it's cheap but given it's harder to use I wouldn't class it as a beginner film, you don't really need the added headaches. My mate inherited a box of 100 with his camera, and there's odd specs all over the shots in the emulsion. Start with Ilford. If you need to save money later once your exposure and development is dialed in then that's the time to look at Foma (granted other people have their own take on this).
- Part of large format is the slowing down and all that, but also be wary of throwing needlessly time-consuming habits into the mix. Make it as slow as it needs to be, but no slower than that! The slowing down thing is really about making conscious considered decisions in a rigorous methodical workflow, not about putting hurdles in your way.
Enjoy! Moving to 5x4 was the best thing I ever did.
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Good advice @Dave_P I have a ball head on my small travel tripod, it's not ideal. These days I'm using 3 way Gitzo heads with decent length control arms which gives greater control.
Camera Fairs are good for buying LF bits & pieces at reasonable prices. @AnalogueWendy has been to the one at Frome, the next one is 26yh October. I go to the one at Wolverhampton, had bargains on Gitzo heads, a carbon fibre tripod, etc, as well as many DDS film holders, cable releases. Also occasionally LF lenses, Gossen meters, but there's no guarantee what you will find, and it helps to have an idea of values. It's worth looking online, eBay, Facebook market place, etc.
The focus screen is important, and whether there's a fresnel. The combination screen on my Wista 45DX is so good I rarely need to use a dark-cloth, or a loupe. My dark-cloths are some old black material, about 24" x 34", I wrap the cameras in them when in my back-packs. I do have two large professional dark-cloths, double sided, they came with Half plate & 10x8 cameras, but they are too large & bulky for field use with a 5x4 camera. Best make your own, just needs to be a thick material, mine are black corduroy.
Ian
Camera Fairs are good for buying LF bits & pieces at reasonable prices. @AnalogueWendy has been to the one at Frome, the next one is 26yh October. I go to the one at Wolverhampton, had bargains on Gitzo heads, a carbon fibre tripod, etc, as well as many DDS film holders, cable releases. Also occasionally LF lenses, Gossen meters, but there's no guarantee what you will find, and it helps to have an idea of values. It's worth looking online, eBay, Facebook market place, etc.
The focus screen is important, and whether there's a fresnel. The combination screen on my Wista 45DX is so good I rarely need to use a dark-cloth, or a loupe. My dark-cloths are some old black material, about 24" x 34", I wrap the cameras in them when in my back-packs. I do have two large professional dark-cloths, double sided, they came with Half plate & 10x8 cameras, but they are too large & bulky for field use with a 5x4 camera. Best make your own, just needs to be a thick material, mine are black corduroy.
Ian
I had a 4x5 Intrepid now replaced by a Toyo 45a ii. I didn't mind it apart from the initial zeroing up. The pain of using it was largely offset by how light it was. I now also have an Intrepid 8x10 black edition which I manage to get to work mostly and is much improved by the bail back, I would love the Chamonix but can't justify the price for my own use.
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Hi, Joanna,
slowing down will come immediately, because of schlepping some large format weights.
Usually I don't give recommandations to such questions without some specified requirements, because imo it doesn't make sense for you just to tell from my darlings and my doings.
So - do you need high precision cameras? Take a Sinar P rail camera or one of this Linhof folders, built like tanks.
Do you prefer or need lightweight for climbing up highest mountains? What's about a Nagaoka with it's featherweight.
Are you doing table tops/macros at home/studio? I prefer camera backs being able to shift for/backwards, too, because it will avoid scratching the hardwood flooring with tripod legs.
Do you need long bellows for tele lenses,
or are you a wide angle photographer, maybe for mostly doing architecture? Me, I'm not using WA lenses, so I never missed a fresnel lens as an example, and I don't have the need for short lens possibilities (WA bellows).
Others may need a changeable normal-to-WA-bellows for changing focal lenghts.
Not much LF cameras meet all needs, especially combined with transportable weight. So either buy a specialised camera, or two cameras. Or let's look for a good compromise, fitting your needs. From which I have had one.
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