The future of LF?

nikki

nikki

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We are looking for some friendly, productive and incisive feedback if we may?

Over the past 3 years or so we have focussed our attentions a little more on large format photography, from cameras to film and accessories to chemistry . Those of you who know us, are already fully aware of our passion for large format which has seen us enthusiastically throw our hearts, soul and a lot of resources at it (probably more than is commercially sensible :) )

We have restored old cameras, taken on new cameras (Shen Hao, Chamonix, Gibellini), keeping peripherals and goodies, processing services, chemistry and consumables most suited to large format and of course film! This includes our special status granted by Kodak Alaris as specialist large format. A deal aimed at saving you money (dont thank us, thank Kodak Alaris, it was very kind of them to do that).

We want to do more!

The question is (which could be percieved as attention seeking but why not?) what do you see as the future of large format? We see it as encouraging and assisting new users to act on their interest in large format. We do shoot Large format ourselves but havent had time to do so for a while so confidence levels do drop, so also it is about encouraging users in our situation regain their confidence too.

What do you think the way forward is? keep one eye onreality and commercial viability, if we can encourage new users they in turn will encourage the manufacturers and consolidate the future of large format.
How do we encourage more people into large format?
 
How you persuade somebody to start I don't know but very few new users will have £**** to try it out, access to good entry level used cameras and lenses with good guidance on what will fit wit their style of photography will help. The choice of 4x5 can be bewildering.

Get them hooked with something like a cheaper MPP VI and 6-12 months later they may well be coming to you for a Shen Hao
 
Thanks Karl, it is true, the choice of 5x4 is definately bewildering but the nice thing about having a physical shop is that people can come and visit and have a good look and test of the cameras we have. Maybe we should have an open day specifically for large format?
 
nikki said:
Thanks Karl, it is true, the choice of 5x4 is definately bewildering but the nice thing about having a physical shop is that people can come and visit and have a good look and test of the cameras we have. Maybe we should have an open day specifically for large format?
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Do you attend the Photography Show at the NEC? I know it is expensive for traders and the cost couldn't really be justified, but a place like that would really reach out to the maximum numbers. If you were closer I would have definitely visited by now
 
nikki said:
Thanks Karl, it is true, the choice of 5x4 is definately bewildering but the nice thing about having a physical shop is that people can come and visit and have a good look and test of the cameras we have. Maybe we should have an open day specifically for large format?
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The idea of an LF open day is excellent, however location dictates the possible audience, but you might also turn it into a weekend workshop.

It's about passing on knowledge to shorten new LF user's learning curve, trying to eliminate or at least minimise costly mistakes. I've been shooting LF for 45 years but there's always things I can learn :D

I'm planning an LF weekend meet up fairly soon, initially I'd hoped this would be at the end of March, but that wasn't possible, maybe June before school holidays.

Ian
 
nikki said:
We are looking for some friendly, productive and incisive feedback if we may?

Over the past 3 years or so we have focussed our attentions a little more on large format photography, from cameras to film and accessories to chemistry . Those of you who know us, are already fully aware of our passion for large format which has seen us enthusiastically throw our hearts, soul and a lot of resources at it (probably more than is commercially sensible :) )

We have restored old cameras, taken on new cameras (Shen Hao, Chamonix, Gibellini), keeping peripherals and goodies, processing services, chemistry and consumables most suited to large format and of course film! This includes our special status granted by Kodak Alaris as specialist large format. A deal aimed at saving you money (dont thank us, thank Kodak Alaris, it was very kind of them to do that).

We want to do more!

The question is (which could be percieved as attention seeking but why not?) what do you see as the future of large format? We see it as encouraging and assisting new users to act on their interest in large format. We do shoot Large format ourselves but havent had time to do so for a while so confidence levels do drop, so also it is about encouraging users in our situation regain their confidence too.

What do you think the way forward is? keep one eye onreality and commercial viability, if we can encourage new users they in turn will encourage the manufacturers and consolidate the future of large format.
How do we encourage more people into large format?
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I cannot comment on the UK situation, but here in the US, LF was a niche long before digital overthrew the photographic world. Commercial photographers had long ago moved to rollfilm for it's high quality-to-weight ratio. Hasselblad and other systems accommodated digital backs giving the working professional choices in both domains. In the last 30 years or so, I've witnessed LF become the domain entirely of the serious amateur and hobbyist.

All of this is to say that I think one likely has to see LF as smaller and smaller niche of enthusiasts. Digital film scanning breathed life back into film in some degree, certainly, and I suspect there will always be some few of us that are passionate about this. But, one model to consider is that LF in 20+ years is going to look a lot like the collodion, salt print, and platinum communities today...
 
Reading this post brought to mind

Villages

www.emfcamp.org www.emfcamp.org
Not on again until next year - and I must admit I have never been but from those I have spoken I am told it's excellent.
Of course, I have no idea whether LF would fit in, but I see no reason why not.
Steve
 
"How do we encourage more people into large format?"


From what i've seen and those i've met, anyone pursuing photography at university these days especially MA and above will have an understanding and will use, own, borrow some kind of large format camera, along with medium format, they’ll also be using a modern mirrorless and a smart phone!

If they are going towards fashion / fine art: LF is still very economical (starting) compared to Phase One and remains higher resolution (at the time of this post)

In short: appreciating the difference between fast and slow processes with all the options available today.

That was my impression anyway - if that helps.
 
I feel these days it would be difficult to encourage people to start film photography let alone large format.
The biggest problem I see is the ongoing cost of materials and lack of convenience.
Also, and with no disrespect to this forum, it's not exactly fast moving here.

I'm a die hard film user and all the time I can get materials I will continue my hobby, but, I can't convince anyone that north of £14 for one sheet of developed film is a good idea.
 
“keep one eye on reality and commercial viability”


Zooming out for a second (because its quite a humorous reminder) to literally billions of people today; perhaps 2/3rds of the planet or more, to them a cameras means a phone with a front and back camera with immediate airdrop to their friends and direct uploads to social media :)

How amazing, really!

By contrast, one immediate aspect of LF is that it’s extremely slow, archaic and requires hours before you see the final image.

I can just imagine thats absolutely shocking to anyone only aware of the last 15 years of digital photography.


So firstly, there requires a ton of fresh education and re-introduction to anyone unfamiliar because if they have never seen it - it’s totally new.

So it helps to see that LF is a new type of photography. It’s not old, it’s new. WOW!!

Hence the appreciation for fast AND slow photography - understanding the benefits of the many possible worlds of photography are vital.


Now, commercial viability (popularity) across the board in LF - requires two sides growing steadily, as they ideally dialogue back and forth.


Side One: Relevant to the photographer.

Firstly, the desire for artistic exploration, experimentation, expression in the LF realm, fulled by a drive for further photographic mastery, or a passionate side hobby for those into the bizarre and esoteric :)

So a friendly starting point, can best be served by fun and social meet-ups / group trips / specialist physical space / pop ups, where people play around, look, and guided by a tutorial portion of the day, exchange ideas, because friendly support can save years of stop / start on any hobby or interest.

Side Two: Relevant to client work.

There to needs to be new and old photographers with an ambition to offer LF as a service to help others achieve a result thats stylistically ‘relevant’ to them, and ‘repeatable’ of such style. Which is a combination of photographers developed style, along with reproductive characteristics of their LF system to achieve the desirable ‘baked in’ aesthetics, feel, quality.


Both sides:

The clients on either side: the photographer purchasing to ‘gear up’ or attend LF events, or client wanting that ‘style and quality of image’ is simply thinking:

“I want some of that for me!”

Which leads back to more LF creators creating, then sharing that out to the world, and some portion of an audience who admire that quality and value will be inspired to engague to ask more questions and ask if you can do the same for them.

So IMO the future of LF is more inspiration shared, keeping open the many parallel approaches to what photography can be.
 
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soupdragon said:
I feel these days it would be difficult to encourage people to start film photography let alone large format.
The biggest problem I see is the ongoing cost of materials and lack of convenience.
Also, and with no disrespect to this forum, it's not exactly fast moving here.

I'm a die hard film user and all the time I can get materials I will continue my hobby, but, I can't convince anyone that north of £14 for one sheet of developed film is a good idea.
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I totally hear what you are saying.

Though also consider that there is no enterprise out there that does not have overheads and daily inconveniences that can cost: hundreds, thousands, millions.

You just need to have the right regular audience to survive and thrive in business.

You say hobby, which might mean that you are trying to sell prints to your extended social circle or locality and you are not having much luck.

Careful where you cast your pearls! ;)
 
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Adrian Ch said:
“keep one eye on reality and commercial viability”


Zooming out for a second (because its quite a humorous reminder) to literally billions of people today; perhaps 2/3rds of the planet or more, to them a cameras means a phone with a front and back camera with immediate airdrop to their friends and direct uploads to social media :)
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That's entirely true, but mass appeal has never really been the benchmark for excellence. There will always be people who scribble random doodles on the back of a cereal container and there will be people who draw carefully, thoughtfully, and well.

Phone cameras and 10x8 field cameras notionally occupy something called "Photography" but that's just by linguistic convention.

They are no more alike that microwave heated fast meals and and dinner at a 3 Star Michelin restaurant, but both are "food".

They are no more alike than the vulgar illiterate utterances of a rapper, and the transcendent writing of a Bach motet, but both are called "music". (To my personal horror and dismay.)

The digital world is rapidly departing the formal definition of "photography", as AIs are increasingly deployed to make the image of what it should have been rather than what was captured. In this regard, digital is actually headed backwards in time and beginning to incrementally resemble painting ... a construct not a capture: by a smart-dumb silicon gorilla that's been taught by rote.

LF, and for that matter, 35mm and MF monochrome photography will exist - admittedly in niches - until/unless several conditions are met:

  1. Digital sensors can capture an image with the resolution of film (nearly the case for 35mm today)
  2. Digital sensors can capture the dynamic range film can
  3. Diffraction of digital sensors is overcome
  4. Digital capture can be made to show the tonal smoothness and subtlety that is inherent in film
  5. And most important: An output medium comparable to silver prints, palladium, carbon, or kallitype
Some of these are nearly achieved for MF with cameras like the Hasselblad x2D, but as phenomenal is it is, it still doesn't have film's tonal smoothness.

No one has achieved anything close to the rendering power and tonality of 5x4 or 10x8, except perhaps the sensorwallahs working for the Five Eyes, but they're not sharing.

It's my view that the 5 items above will never be fully realized simply because it's not economical to do so. It's far more likely that digital cameras - under the relentless pressure of phones in every hand - will simply diverge away from photography entirely. In the long pull, as we get to truly driverless cars, we will get photographerless imaging machinery. Said machinery will simply record people as they walk through life - now utterly numb to their surroundings - and give them a sanitized and "improved" version of it for their periodic consumption of memory lane ... even if the memory is entirely false or manufactured.

And there still be be painters and brush, pianists and Steinway, and - yes - photographers, darkrooms, and big sheets of film.
 
Hmmm…
I’m suggesting that you are allowing yourself to be a little bit too pessimistic, on two fronts.
Firstly, computing power is still increasing. Both the hardware and software are subject to constant and relentless improvement. (My “forever” iMac is now obsolete.) I see no reason why all your thresholds should not be crossed, sooner or later. Almost certainly, they have been crossed already, but not at popular price points. That will come. When the iPhone was just “one more thing” who would have predicted today’s astonishingly capable devices?
As for the future uses of AI, who can tell? I agree that recording what “should be there” rather than what is there is a distinct possibility. Watch out for influencers with immaculate complexions, ideal bodies, sparkling eyes and faultless grammar in your own language. But also expect detailed analysis of defects in structures, nutrient distribution in crops and early warning of disease and disability.
So where does this leave large format photography, or film photography in general?
Qualified optimism is the key. There are still working flint-knappers, (but not many). People still throw pots and weave baskets. Hand-knitting is apparently becoming more widespread. Despite the blandishments of 3D printing, people still chip away at lumps of stone. In fact, an ancient Egyptian sculptor could start work on York Minster today, although he’d be astonished by iron tools. Many people grow food for themselves, despite the cheap and abundant nourishment that’s so readily available. (At least in the parts of the world that we inhabit.)
It seems that craft is still alive and well.
Photography does have a limitation that some other crafts do not share. It demands some kind of industrial hinterland. Film can’t be home-made and neither can lenses. As long as we can obtain these, film photography and LF will continue, but possibly as an increasingly niche activity. Remember, even painting’s not dead, and shows no sign of dying.
One indicator for optimists is that there is no shortage of new entrants to camera making.
You will see that I’ve used the word “craft”. LF photography is undoubtedly a craft. Not all photography is art, and that’s another discussion entirely.
 
I have no question that it will become technically feasible to replicate the resolution and tone of a large sheet of film, I just doubt it will happen because there isn't a compelling market for it. All the more so as AIs take on the role of photographer, and humans become just camera bags.
 
Not much need for humans in the long run. We already have machines that can pick their own subject (regrettably to destroy it). I don’t doubt that AI will soon be able to master composition, well beyond the simplified advice in magazines of thirds, leading lines and so forth.
After the success of Ingenuity, NASA is planning to put a helicopter on Titan. Duplicating the effect of FP4 and Record Rapid seems trivial. It will almost certainly be a by-product of the rising tide of progress (hmmmm… should I use a different word?).
I suspect that, from normal distances, under normal circumstances, the drawbridge is already crossed. Traditional processing has one thing left up its sleeve. It produces curly prints. No digital process can manage that.
Despite all this apparent techno Uber-optimism, I’ll persist with the old inconveniences.
 
David M said:
Despite all this apparent techno Uber-optimism, I’ll persist with the old inconveniences.
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Me too.

OT Aside: If you're interested in a really good read on how we've deeply misapplied science and unnecessarily reduced man to just being a meat machine, I highly commend "The Psychology Of Totalitarianism" by DeSmet. He's a professor of research psychology at Ghent in Belgium. It's not an easy read but it's sobering.
 
Thank you for the recommendation. The world is making me far too sober at the moment.
I recently showed a friend some iPhone (very basic iPhone) pictures, printed to A2. He asked why, if I could get perfectly acceptable images that way, did I persist with all the paraphernalia and trouble of LF. As he’s an excellent photographer himself, the question deserved an answer.
My conclusion was that I like making things; I like the process. I happen to like the equipment too. The iPhone is beautifully made, but I don’t aspire to make one. As its makers intended, it’s an anonymous extension of my hand. The Gandolfi, on the other hand…
Where does this lead us? In today’s world, almost all images are consumed on screen. The images on this forum are consumed on screen, as we are sometimes obliged to remind ourselves. In practice, we are guessing what an original print would look like. Nevertheless, we persist.
Another thing that we, as a forum, do, is to discuss things more widely than pixel-counting and new tricks (“hacks”) in Lightroom.
My conclusion is that, although things like smoothness of tones and all those other aesthetic qualities are very desirable, they are not the reason why anyone takes up the banner of Very Inconvenient Cameras. It’s the involvement, the craft, the (metaphorical) dirty hands. It’s the impulse that makes my wife keep bees, for people to write poetry, for me to make my own Christmas cards. It’s enlarging the human being inside all of us.
Quite enough. I risk enthusiasm.
 
Adrian Ch said:
I totally hear what you are saying.

Though also consider that there is no enterprise out there that does not have overheads and daily inconveniences that can cost: hundreds, thousands, millions.

You just need to have the right regular audience to survive and thrive in business.

You say hobby, which might mean that you are trying to sell prints to your extended social circle or locality and you are not having much luck.

Careful where you cast your pearls! ;)
Click to expand...
None of my work is for sale, that's why it's a hobby.
I do it purely for fun. If I were charging people that would be work and thus, from my perspective, boring.
David M said:
Not much need for humans in the long run. We already have machines that can pick their own subject (regrettably to destroy it). I don’t doubt that AI will soon be able to master composition, well beyond the simplified advice in magazines of thirds, leading lines and so forth.
After the success of Ingenuity, NASA is planning to put a helicopter on Titan. Duplicating the effect of FP4 and Record Rapid seems trivial. It will almost certainly be a by-product of the rising tide of progress (hmmmm… should I use a different word?).
I suspect that, from normal distances, under normal circumstances, the drawbridge is already crossed. Traditional processing has one thing left up its sleeve. It produces curly prints. No digital process can manage that.
Despite all this apparent techno Uber-optimism, I’ll persist with the old inconveniences.
Click to expand...

I think the future of this forum is in doubt because of the title.
It verbally excludes 35mm, medium format, yada yada yada................
If people want more traffic here, the forum should select a new name, something more inclusive (I hate that phrase)
Perhaps something more appropriate would be "Large Format and Film Forum"
 
There already seems to be plenty on the web for 35mm, Leica owners, and so on. Large format is rather specialised and many of the concerns of LF photographers are not applicable to lesser formats and probably of very little interest to their users. I don’t think anyone has been excluded for mentioning other things. There does seem to be a gentle trickle of new members. Our alternative would be the US version, but their interests are often very local. It’s a good thing to have our own UK forum.
 
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