Smaller Format Sections

Should We Have Sections For Smaller Formats?


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Wet processing can produce those wonderful curly edges. So far, even the most advanced digital printer has failed to do this. Tediously flat.

You obviously have never ordered Lambda prints, on silver halide paper, from Ilford, or the like. They have been wet-processed, dried and come rolled up in a tube.

If I do use an inkjet printer and want that nostalgic kick, all I need to do is to roll the corners towards the middle and leave it under a weighted cloth in a humid atmosphere

Or, I could simply take advantage of not having to flatten out the paper before framing. Or are you say that real photographers don't flatten their prints, they just leave them curled up in a cupboard?
 
You obviously have never ordered Lambda prints, on silver halide paper, from Ilford, or the like. They have been wet-processed, dried and come rolled up in a tube.

Bob Carnie, in Toronto, uses his Lambda machine to make quite large negatives for alternative processes on Ilford Ortho film.

Hybrid is here to stay and can be useful where older materials are no longer available, for instance direct positive copying films these were great for making enlarged negatives for contact printing/alternative processes.

Ian
 
I don't think curled corners play any part, let's face it, photographers spend a lot of money and time dry-mounting to get flat prints
 
Must say, of all the reasons for staying with analog working, curled corners did not spring readily to mind.
 
It's generally accepted these days that LF starts at 9x12/5x4. Times change pre1930s LF in the UK was deemed to be 10x8, 12x10, and 15x12, and MF was Quarter plate, 5x4, Half Plate, and Whole plate. 120, 6.5x9, & 35mm cameras were Miniature formats.
Times do indeed change. From discussions on many digital forums, I was beginning to think large format is now considered by many to be 24x36mm :)
 
I would think that the common factors are sheet film and/or an adjustable camera.
 
It's a no for me. There's dedicated forums for the likes of Leica, Pentax etc.
I would rather keep this site dedicated to large format photography.
 
As with other domains, photography has evolved and definitions may have to follow.

When we started LF, in 2005, it was with the intention of making larger prints than were possible from 24x36mm film. 5" x 4" was the obvious choice and we could easily achieve 5ft x 4ft prints through a lab.

The digital requirement for the same size print is 14,400px x 11,520px. My Nikon D850, in 5x4 format produces an image 6880px x 5504px but… using Topaz to resize, only requires just over 2x enlargement, which is easily achievable without any loss of quality or detail.

My question is, if it is possible to replicate the same high quality large format prints, with movements reproducible in post processing, is there still a technical need to use LF film?

Or is it far more about the whole "beautiful large wooden camera" experience and the nostalgia that evokes?
 
As with other domains, photography has evolved and definitions may have to follow.

When we started LF, in 2005, it was with the intention of making larger prints than were possible from 24x36mm film. 5" x 4" was the obvious choice and we could easily achieve 5ft x 4ft prints through a lab.

The digital requirement for the same size print is 14,400px x 11,520px. My Nikon D850, in 5x4 format produces an image 6880px x 5504px but… using Topaz to resize, only requires just over 2x enlargement, which is easily achievable without any loss of quality or detail.

My question is, if it is possible to replicate the same high quality large format prints, with movements reproducible in post processing, is there still a technical need to use LF film?

Or is it far more about the whole "beautiful large wooden camera" experience and the nostalgia that evokes?


I watched this same discussion take place with the onset of the Moog synthesizer (I worked in a recording studio shortly after it came to be widely used). The traditional pianists and organists howled that the world was coming to an end, that they would be made irrelevant ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Well, Steinway and Boesendorfer are still making incredible pianos, and churches have pipe organs, lo these many years later.

In actual fact, what happened was the music forked - some of it was on traditional instruments, some entirely electronic, and some hybrid. What all of these had in common, at least the successful ones, was the realization that it is the musician that makes the music, not the instrument.

I think a direct parallel exists in contemporary photography. It's not film vs. digital vs. hybrid - they are entirely different branches from a common 19th Century root. We "musicians" play our "instruments" in different ways and the work is as good- or no so good as we make it.

For me, irrespective of format, I continue to shoot film for one simple reason: I cannot find any digital capture medium, nor any digital output medium, display or printed, that remotely resembles a well executed silver print, no matter how much post production fiddling is done. Even if you project a digital image optically onto silver paper, it just doesn't look the same. I find that, even if I take infinite care with a digital image, it looks and feels far closer to a traditional E6 transparency than it does a monochrome silver print ... and monochrome silver prints are - as the kids say - "my jam".

To the subject at hand, I do think it is time to consider the various 6cm formats as "large format" media. As you say, things have changed.
 
You’re probably right.
I’m pretty sure that there’s something about enjoying the process and keeping control in your own hands. Solving tricky problems, rather than having them pre-solved for you by some very clever people in Tokyo is very satisfying too. Some people seem to derive satisfaction from polished wood and gleaming brass - and why not?
On the other hand, if you are goal-centred rather than process-centred, the next iteration of digital cameras is obviously the way to go. Can’t be too long before you can send the file directly from camera to printer. AI will make the necessary corrections while the information is in flight. Furthermore, after perusing and capturing some of your own unaided output it will make the aesthetic choices that you would have made yourself. Perhaps a little crop? Perhaps remove that pebble? A bit warmer than standard? Verticals, obviously …and so on. Naturally, it would take care of invoicing, delivery and suchlike.
Drones can already seek out individual people and kill them. No reason to suppose they can’t go out with a brief and shoot things in the photographic sense. Can’t be long before they write their own brief. All that’s left is changing the name of the payee on the invoice.
 
You’re probably right.
I’m pretty sure that there’s something about enjoying the process and keeping control in your own hands. Solving tricky problems, rather than having them pre-solved for you by some very clever people in Tokyo is very satisfying too. Some people seem to derive satisfaction from polished wood and gleaming brass - and why not?
On the other hand, if you are goal-centred rather than process-centred, the next iteration of digital cameras is obviously the way to go. Can’t be too long before you can send the file directly from camera to printer. AI will make the necessary corrections while the information is in flight. Furthermore, after perusing and capturing some of your own unaided output it will make the aesthetic choices that you would have made yourself. Perhaps a little crop? Perhaps remove that pebble? A bit warmer than standard? Verticals, obviously …and so on. Naturally, it would take care of invoicing, delivery and suchlike.
Drones can already seek out individual people and kill them. No reason to suppose they can’t go out with a brief and shoot things in the photographic sense. Can’t be long before they write their own brief. All that’s left is changing the name of the payee on the invoice.

Since I've known you to indulge in the occasional philosophical discursion here is a thought question:

Commerce aside, for purposes of making art, is it still art if an AI or other machine is autonomously "improving" the work.

Say, I had a 100 billion pixel with noise so low as to be entirely irrelevant. If I took a snapshot of a scene, and told the AI, Make me an artistic image of the farm in the far upper left quadrant, would that still be art?

I ask, because with tools like the newest iPhones and software like TopazAI, we are very, very close to this already (other than the infinite resolution and zero noise, I mean)...
 
I think a direct parallel exists in contemporary photography. It's not film vs. digital vs. hybrid - they are entirely different branches from a common 19th Century root. We "musicians" play our "instruments" in different ways and the work is as good- or no so good as we make it.

Absolutely.

I cannot find any digital capture medium, nor any digital output medium, display or printed, that remotely resembles a well executed silver print, no matter how much post production fiddling is done.

Well, as you might expect, I have to disagree. It has taken a few years and far too much money but, I have shown our prints to the "old and wise" in our club and others and they have been convinced, on several occasions, that they are silver prints. This is possibly due to our use of a heavy Baryte paper and an amazing Canon Pro 1000 printer.

Solving tricky problems, rather than having them pre-solved for you by some very clever people in Tokyo is very satisfying too.
This is a major misconception about digital photography, usually expressed by film photographers who picked up a low end digital camera and took a few "snaps".

High end digital photography involves familiarising oneself with the workings of a quality camera, removing virtually all automations and doing it all manually.

It can take just as long to make a quality digital image as it does to make an LF film image.

On the other hand, if you are goal-centred rather than process-centred, the next iteration of digital cameras is obviously the way to go. Can’t be too long before you can send the file directly from camera to printer. AI will make the necessary corrections while the information is in flight. Furthermore, after perusing and capturing some of your own unaided output it will make the aesthetic choices that you would have made yourself. Perhaps a little crop? Perhaps remove that pebble? A bit warmer than standard? Verticals, obviously …and so on. Naturally, it would take care of invoicing, delivery and suchlike.

But that would not be photography. At least, not as I have known it for 60 years.

AI is not intelligent, it is a collection of ideas that some programmer has crammed into a decision tree. One reason why I will not be upgrading beyond my D850 is because the viewfinder in the Z series is electronic, so I would lose that contact with the real world.

On the subject of AI software, there is a world of difference between DxO and Topaz, who use AI as helpers for things like noise reduction and enlargement, and "generative" AI which steals other folks' images and attempts to "construct" an approximation of something pseudo artistic.
 
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Firstly, “…remotely resembles…”. is clearly an exaggeration. Under what test conditions? How would we know without double-blind testing with a sufficiently large audience. Digital and wet prints can resemble each other very closely, although there are some giveaways. Some digital prints exhibit changes in reflectivity in different places, and as I’ve mentioned before, wet prints are seldom flat.
Is this what concerns us? Should we spend our lives squinting sideways at prints to decide on their merits? How much does it matter?
I’m inclined to agree with Joanna that we have reached equality. By this, I mean equality between competent practitioners.

Let us think of AI. It’s very early days indeed for AI. It will get better. Already it’s better at diagnosing diseases than doctors.
Let’s suppose we encounter an object on a gallery wall. It’s described as a Work of Art. You like it very much. You inspect it closely. The gallery owner introduces you to the person responsible for making it. As you shake hands, you notice traces of paint under their fingernails.
Given everything you have seen, is that person a painter or a computer programmer who does DIY? Does this alter the object on the wall?

Creation by mechanical means is not a new idea. Julia, in 1984 (pub 1949), operated a machine for writing novels.
 
I don't believe creativity needs to be inclusive.
To the contrary, the beauty of creativity is the very nature that it can be individual.
 
Firstly, “…remotely resembles…”. is clearly an exaggeration. Under what test conditions? How would we know without double-blind testing with a sufficiently large audience. Digital and wet prints can resemble each other very closely, although there are some giveaways. Some digital prints exhibit changes in reflectivity in different places, and as I’ve mentioned before, wet prints are seldom flat.
Is this what concerns us? Should we spend our lives squinting sideways at prints to decide on their merits? How much does it matter?
I’m inclined to agree with Joanna that we have reached equality. By this, I mean equality between competent practitioners.

One note - I am speaking here specifically and only of monochrome film projected onto silver prints. Nothing more.\

No paper on which I have seen digital media reproduced comes close to the look of a silver fiber print. I stipulate I have not seen all- or most candidates, but enough to be convinced looking further isn't worth the effort.

When I say "look" I specifically mean how the silver print renders the tonal range, how it reflects light, and how it hangs on the wall. It may, in fact, be inferior by some clinical definition to digitally printed media, but I just don't like the look.

That's not to say a digitally produced physical print cannot be beautiful - it can be - I just find it far less satisfying than the great silver prints I have seen - at least for that set of digital media I have sampled. No matter how hard they try, metamerism seems to show up to interfere with the work.

I saw the a show of Vivian Maier's work. The stuff done chemically was astonishingly good. Right next to it was stuff that had been produced from scan and digital printer. It was good, but clearly inferior, to my eye at least.

The flip side is something digitally captured and then projected onto silver paper. Here I have a somewhat different view. The final thing does look like a silver print. But - again noting I have not seen everything possible - the digital capture itself looks so different than film response, I actually find it qualitatively looks more like a giant Ektachrome image than something from a monochrome silver negative. The dynamic range, the linearity of the capture, and the edge effect are - to my eye - very 'chrome like.

Let us think of AI. It’s very early days indeed for AI. It will get better. Already it’s better at diagnosing diseases than doctors.
Let’s suppose we encounter an object on a gallery wall. It’s described as a Work of Art. You like it very much. You inspect it closely. The gallery owner introduces you to the person responsible for making it. As you shake hands, you notice traces of paint under their fingernails.
Given everything you have seen, is that person a painter or a computer programmer who does DIY? Does this alter the object on the wall?

Creation by mechanical means is not a new idea. Julia, in 1984 (pub 1949), operated a machine for writing novels.


But that's not the question. When mechanical means are controlled by an artist, then it's manmade art. But the application the AIs as currently envisioned is headed in the direction of completely hands of interpretation of the scene. I stipulate that you may get something beautiful out of that but I'd argue it's not "art". Art, definitionally, must come from the hands of mankind. Otherwise monkey feces would be hung at MOMA ... oh ... wait.

The critical question isn't whether they wrote code or used a brush - both are legitimate ways to make art. The critical question is whether they were in control of the process which is decidedly not the case with AIs even if they did author the large language model or rulesets. There is a kind of deep question about whether AI even qualifies - strictly speaking - as an "algorithm'. An algorithm, again by definition, must produce the same outputs for a given set of inputs. It's arguable that AIs do not do this. (That's a little pedantic, I know, but it speaks to the question of who is controlling the "art".)
 
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Some digital prints exhibit changes in reflectivity in different places

This is where the Canon 12 ink printers come into their own. They include a chroma optimiser - a clear ink that is applied where there is no other inks.

wet prints are seldom flat.

Fibre papers for inkjet printers can curl just as easily in humid condition. But I use a 1mm self-adhesive card backing which avoids any tendency to warp.

No paper on which I have seen digital media reproduced comes close to the look of a silver fiber print. I stipulate I have not seen all- or most candidates,

You certainly haven't. But, when you are ready, you need to look at Canson baryta photographique 310gsm printed on a Canon Pro series printer.

Or Ilford baryta 310gsm silver halide paper printed on a lambda printer (scanning laser, then developed, fixed and washed just like any other silver halide, fibre paper. It looks like a wet print, curls like a wet print and feels like a wet print because it is a wet print.

Imagine, being able to retouch a master of the image only once instead of every single print.
 
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Yes, I did suspect that we were, in practice, discussing B&W only prints and not all photographic work. Almost all prints today are made using digital technology somewhere.
Does anyone remember a very similar discussion about resin-coated paper and another one about variable contrast paper? They rather overlapped.
It seems that neither of them had a soul. I’m not sure if I’ve got one, so what test we’d apply to a piece of paper is beyond me.
Recently, I dug out some old prints, fully wet-processed and yes, they were different. But I’d print them differently now anyway. These were naked prints and I’m pretty sure that flattened, mounted and framed, I’d be very hard-pressed to say with absolute certainty, how they were produced.
I may seem obsessed by the curly edges of wet prints, but there is a reason and it’s Hans the Calculating Horse.
There was once a circus act in which a horse performed simple arithmetic. When asked what (say) two plus five was, Hans would tap his hoof seven times. I don’t know how far his ability extended, but it does seem remarkable.
Eventually, it was discovered that Hans, although still remarkably clever, was not a genius. He was reacting to very small movements by his trainer, that his trainer was also unaware of. Something like a very slight involuntary tightening of the hand on the rein as the critical number was approached.
My suggestion is that when we say we can make these subtle distinctions and make them reliably, we may also be unconsciously reacting to very small clues, such as flatness.
It’s very necessary here to insist that I’m in no way comparing any member of this forum to a horse.

As for AI, that’s a story that has yet to unfold. If we judge something to be a masterpiece, does that not suffice? Authorship and provenance are very important commercial considerations. We are all familiar with those revelations on the Antiques Road Show, where someone comes in with a mere anonymous daub, rescued from a house-clearance and leaves with a Vermeer, worth millions.
I exaggerate of course, but the painting itself has not altered. Does, or should, our aesthetic judgement alter because of the means of production, along with the judgement of our wallet?
And how does this judgement alter if the means of production involved a new category of creator - a non-meat artist?
 
What strikes me, is that most of these discussions seem to centre around "validation".

Why can't we just accept things for what they are?
 
A very sensible comment. Thank you.
I’ve been tilting at too many windmills.

Firstly, I’ve been trying to find out what exactly it is that visibly distinguishes a well-made wet print from a well-made dry one. If it’s “tonal range” then it can be objectively graphed and if it can be graphed, it can be done in Photoshop. It must be something different or more probably, something extra.

Secondly, I’m fascinated by the prospect that AI offers. It’s true that it looks round (I fear anthropomorphism is inevitable) at other creative work and then amalgamates or copies what it has seen.
But this is exactly the way that all artists, until very recently, were educated. They sat in front of acknowledged masterpieces and copied them. That’s why the V&A is there. It was one of the justifications for the great Exhibition of 1851. Before that, Renaissance artists had studied the newly-discovered antiquities of the classical world and later, aspiring artists came to study the works of the Renaissance. Leonardo didn’t spring from the womb as a competent painter; he did what he was told by Verrocchio until he could be trusted with his own angel to paint.
AI, I suggest, is still in its ‘prentice phase. Tomorrow will be different.
 
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