300mm lenses, size and weight differences.

[Ian Grant]

These 3 lenses all cover 10x8, I bought the middle one a 300mm f9 Nikkor M in the late 1980s from Robert White, it had to be ordered from Japan. I planned to upgrade to 10x8 at a later. However, I found on my Wista 45DX it made the camera unstable needing almost full bellows extension and only usable in very still wind conditions.

The second, on the right, came with my first 10x8 camera, an Agfa Ansco Commercial View, the seller said it was useless he had used a 300mm Nikkor M. The lens is a 1940/1 12" (300mm) f6.8 Goerz AM Opt Dagor in a Compound #3 that is very smooth and accurate.. In fact it's an excellent lens.

The third, on the left, is a new acquisition, a 1963 300mm f4.5 Schneider Xenar in a Compound #5, it is in stunning condition, and is also quite a lot larger and heavier.

The Pros & Cons.

The 300mm Nikkor M is slow with it's f9 widest aperture but it's still relatively easy to focus. It's small and light with a Copal 1 shutter & top speed 1/400, and weighs around 310g. Very little room for movements on a 10x8 camera.

The 12" (300mm) Dagor is easier to focus because of its f6.8 aperture, heavier at 580g, reasonable size but the Compound #3 top speed is 1/100. Excellent contrast and plenty of room for movements. Could be used on a 5x4

The 300mm Xenar is very easy to focus with its f4.5 aperture, but is much larger, weighing 965g A downside is the Compound #5 top speed is 1/50.

I do have a Wray f6.3 12" Lustrar but that's a barrel lens. I have 3 10x8 Agfa Ansco cameras and will offer the Nikkor Mas an option with one of them. I prefer a 360mm f5.5 Tele Xenar for 5x4 & 7x5.

Ian

 

[MartyNL]

I must admit, as practical, convenient and light small lenses are, I have a real soft-spot for BIG glass.
Pathetic, I know!

 

[jhotopf]

I'm after a 300mm f/5.6 with around 400mm image circle, I've already got the Nikon 300 M F/9 but the movements are limited for 8x10. Very difficult to find now at a reasonable price.

 

[Dave_P]

You really need a 12" Commercial Ektar or Ilex/Caltar f/6.3 to round the set off Ian.

 

[Ian Grant]

I'm after a 300mm f/5.6 with around 400mm image circle, I've already got the Nikon 300 M F/9 but the movements are limited for 8x10. Very difficult to find now at a reasonable price.

A Symmar 300mm f5.6 (or -S) has a 411mm image circle. A f5,6 300mm Xenar has an Image circle of 347mm, interesting a 1978 Schneider sales leaflet states that a 10x8 negative has a diagonal of 312.5mm.

The 12" f6.8 Dagor has a huge image circle, covers 12"x10" at f16 and 17"x14" at f45, however they became a cult lens about 20 years ago and sell for silly money.

Your cheapest option is a Fujinon but that means probably buying from Japan ,Import Duty, then VAT on the lens and shipping plus the tax collection charge adds around 33% on top.

You really need a 12" Commercial Ektar or Ilex/Caltar f/6.3 to round the set off Ian.

I don't like the shutters that most US lens manufacturers used, the big exception is Bausch & Lomb who were one of the early shareholders in Deckel, alonf with the Zeiss Foundation, Alfred Gauthier (a competitor - Ibso, Ibsor, Vario, Prontor, etc). That's why we have a set of standard thread sizes for both cells, and fit. US manufacturers like Wollensak & Ilex have no cross compatibility, even with themselves.

B&L were licenced to make some CZJ lens designs before WWI, as were Ross, Krauss, and a couple of other companies, so it made sense for them to invest in Deckel, and they then made Compur & Compound shutters in the US.

I'm downsizing Dave, but I do buy occasionally to complete say a camera lens package with film holders etc, which is then easier to sell. These days I'm a bottom feeder, I only buy bargains.

Ian

 

[jhotopf]

A Symmar 300mm f5.6 (or -S) has a 411mm image circle. A f5,6 300mm Xenar has an Image circle of 347mm, interesting a 1978 Schneider sales leaflet states that a 10x8 negative has a diagonal of 312.5mm.

The 12" f6.8 Dagor has a huge image circle, covers 12"x10" at f16 and 17"x14" at f45, however they became a cult lens about 20 years ago and sell for silly money.

Your cheapest option is a Fujinon but that means probably buying from Japan ,Import Duty, then VAT on the lens and shipping plus the tax collection charge adds around 33% on top.



I don't like the shutters that most US lens manufacturers used, the big exception is Bausch & Lomb who were one of the early shareholders in Deckel, alonf with the Zeiss Foundation, Alfred Gauthier (a competitor - Ibso, Ibsor, Vario, Prontor, etc). That's why we have a set of standard thread sizes for both cells, and fit. US manufacturers like Wollensak & Ilex have no cross compatibility, even with themselves.

B&L were licenced to make some CZJ lens designs before WWI, as were Ross, Krauss, and a couple of other companies, so it made sense for them to invest in Deckel, and they then made Compur & Compound shutters in the US.

I'm downsizing Dave, but I do buy occasionally to complete say a camera lens package with film holders etc, which is then easier to sell. These days I'm a bottom feeder, I only buy bargains.

Ian

Thanks Ian, I'll probably have a look out for some 300mm lenses from Japan. So far I've been OK with the purchases from there even though import duties are depressing!

 

[Ian Grant]

Thanks Ian, I'll probably have a look out for some 300mm lenses from Japan. So far I've been OK with the purchases from there even though import duties are depressing!

Japanese LF lenses are significantly cheaper in their home market, very few were imported new here in the UK or Europe, their main export market was the US.

I went to the Wolverhampton Camera Fair yesterday, there's less LF equipment every time I go. Yesterday I only saw one 5x4 camera, and about a dozen LF lenses in shutters, nothing that covered 7x5 or 10x8. All 5x4 lenses.

As it happens, I'm looking for a 300mm lens for another 10x8 user, but he wants something faster than f5.6 for Wet plate work. So it I come across a f5.6 300mm in my searches, I'll let you know.

Ian

 

[jhotopf]

Japanese LF lenses are significantly cheaper in their home market, very few were imported new here in the UK or Europe, their main export market was the US.

I went to the Wolverhampton Camera Fair yesterday, there's less LF equipment every time I go. Yesterday I only saw one 5x4 camera, and about a dozen LF lenses in shutters, nothing that covered 7x5 or 10x8. All 5x4 lenses.

As it happens, I'm looking for a 300mm lens for another 10x8 user, but he wants something faster than f5.6 for Wet plate work. So it I come across a f5.6 300mm in my searches, I'll let you know.

Ian

That would be fantastic, thanks!

 

[Monsta]

As it happens, I'm looking for a 300mm lens for another 10x8 user, but he wants something faster than f5.6 for Wet plate work. So it I come across a f5.6 300mm in my searches, I'll let you know.

Ian

A 400mm f4 Leitz Epis makes a nice fast 8x10 portrait lens.

 

[steve goldstein]

300mm f/5.6 lenses won't do well on cameras with rickety front standards!

Here are some weights in grams taken from old manufacturer literature for 300mm f/5.6 lenses in shutter. The Fujinon-L and Schneider Xenar weights are exceptions - I weighed them on my kitchen scale, which is not traceable to any national standards organisation.

Fujinon-L 868
Fujinon-W 1118
Fujinon CM-W ??? but probably closer to the Fujinon-W than the Fujinon-L
Nikkor-W 1250
Apo-Sironar-N 1040
Apo-Sironar-S 1210
Apo-Sironar-W 1610 (a large, rare, and expensive lens that I've never seen except in literature; included for completeness)
Symmar-S 1160 (in Copal 3, varies a bit for other shutters)
Apo-Symmar 1155
Apo-Symmar L 1150
Xenar 710

Calumet had a buy-resell agreement with Schneider, offering the Xenar line as "Caltar Pro" and the Symmar-S line as "Caltar II-S". After Rodenstock replaced Schneider as Calumet's supplier the Apo-Sironar-N line was offered as "Caltar II-N". There was also an agreement at some point with Ilex, I'm not clear on the timeline.

The Fujinon-L and Xenar are 4-element Tessars, the others are 6-element Plasmats. Tessars have less coverage than Plasmats, around 340mm, so will cover 8x10 with modest movements. Plasmat coverage is generally 420mm or so, 448mm for the Apo-Sironar-S and 490mm for the Apo-Sironar-W; the Fujinon CM-W has slightly less, specified as 412mm.

 

[thronobulax]

300mm f/5.6 lenses won't do well on cameras with rickety front standards!

I have both a 14" RD Artar (near enough to 300mm) and a 19" APO Artar, both reshuttered by Grimes in new Copal #3s some years ago.

I find the larger problem to be that the long bellows extension required to focus these make the camera a very fine wind sail, particularly the 19". So it's use is limited to calm days.

 

[Ian Grant]

Calumet's re-branded LF lenses were never sold in the UK/EU, and the only LF lens Kodak sold here was the British made version of the 203mm f7.7 Ektar.

The Wray 12" (300mm) f6.3 Lustrar is a high resolution Wide Angle lens. It's hard to find any literature, adverts say all Lustrars up to 15" were available in shutters. The cells of my 12" Wray would probably fit a Compound #4.

Ian

 

[jhotopf]

A Symmar 300mm f5.6 (or -S) has a 411mm image circle. A f5,6 300mm Xenar has an Image circle of 347mm, interesting a 1978 Schneider sales leaflet states that a 10x8 negative has a diagonal of 312.5mm.

The 12" f6.8 Dagor has a huge image circle, covers 12"x10" at f16 and 17"x14" at f45, however they became a cult lens about 20 years ago and sell for silly money.

Your cheapest option is a Fujinon but that means probably buying from Japan ,Import Duty, then VAT on the lens and shipping plus the tax collection charge adds around 33% on top.



I don't like the shutters that most US lens manufacturers used, the big exception is Bausch & Lomb who were one of the early shareholders in Deckel, alonf with the Zeiss Foundation, Alfred Gauthier (a competitor - Ibso, Ibsor, Vario, Prontor, etc). That's why we have a set of standard thread sizes for both cells, and fit. US manufacturers like Wollensak & Ilex have no cross compatibility, even with themselves.

B&L were licenced to make some CZJ lens designs before WWI, as were Ross, Krauss, and a couple of other companies, so it made sense for them to invest in Deckel, and they then made Compur & Compound shutters in the US.

I'm downsizing Dave, but I do buy occasionally to complete say a camera lens package with film holders etc, which is then easier to sell. These days I'm a bottom feeder, I only buy bargains.

Ian

Japanese LF lenses are significantly cheaper in their home market, very few were imported new here in the UK or Europe, their main export market was the US.

I went to the Wolverhampton Camera Fair yesterday, there's less LF equipment every time I go. Yesterday I only saw one 5x4 camera, and about a dozen LF lenses in shutters, nothing that covered 7x5 or 10x8. All 5x4 lenses.

As it happens, I'm looking for a 300mm lens for another 10x8 user, but he wants something faster than f5.6 for Wet plate work. So it I come across a f5.6 300mm in my searches, I'll let you know.

Ian

I’ve just bought a fairly modern Fujinon W 300 f/5.6 from Japan, it should be here by Wednesday. I tried out the Nikkor 300 M on Friday on some HP5.

 

[Nas]

View attachment 5167



Ian

I've got all these lenses although my 12" Dagor isn't in a shutter. I've used it on 10x8 but I didn't realise it covered 12"x10". I'll try it out when I get a chance. Thanks.

Here's a recent portrait I made on 10x8 with my 12" Dagor: Fomapan 400 @ 200.

 

[David Lindquist]

Very nice photograph, like it a lot!

Where was it taken? Asking because this plays to one of my other keen interests, machine tools. He's sitting on the table of what looks to me like a planer mill.

David

 

[Nas]

Very nice photograph, like it a lot!

Where was it taken? Asking because this plays to one of my other keen interests, machine tools. He's sitting on the table of what looks to me like a planer mill.

David

Thanks, David. This was at an engineering firm not too far from me. They made me a custom adapter so I can mount my 12.5inch Cooke IIA lens on a Sinar. The lens weighs 5KG and the flange is too large to fit on a standard Sinar lens panel. The mill is massive and my favourite machine to photograph there but I can't say which type it is. Here's a picture of it.

 

[Ian Grant]

He's sitting on the bed of the machinery that launched the Industrial Revolution

I also use a 12" f6.8 Dagor, I was told it was useless when I bought my first 10x8 Agfa Ansco from the UWS . It is in a Compound #5 shutter. I seem to remember cleaning, then a drop or two of sewing machine oil, if the slow speed piston. This is quick and easy as it doesn't need any shutter disassembly. 20 years later the lens & shutter are still working as new, and image quality is superb.

Some years ago I did some work for a photographer, she asked if I had a lens I'd sell with an old-fashioned look, I said OK look at the images on the wall, which were made with a vintage lens. The choice was an image made with a Yashinon, where I'd used differential focus. I then pointed out an image made with a 1940/1 12" Dagor.

We have to be careful. Another example was I shot some photos at a friend's wedding, about 35 years ago, when he saw the images he said wow you must have bought a new camera. The truth was no, I was just using a Leica M3 and 50mm f2 Summicron, hand held and no flash.

The same thing happened two years ago, I made some images with my Dallmeyer 2B, I showed someone some B&W prints and people assumed I had bought a new (as in brand new) lens.

Ian

 

[David Lindquist]

Thanks, David. This was at an engineering firm not too far from me. They made me a custom adapter so I can mount my 12.5inch Cooke IIA lens on a Sinar. The lens weighs 5KG and the flange is too large to fit on a standard Sinar lens panel. The mill is massive and my favourite machine to photograph there but I can't say which type it is. Here's a picture of it.

Thank you very much, a beautiful photograph of an industrial subject. I think that white rag hanging off the control lever is quite fortuitous.

That is what we would call in the US a "Planer Mill", I see in the UK the term is "Plano-Milling Machine." Derived from the planer and using the rotating multi-edge cutter of the milling machine, these give much higher metal removal rates compared to the planer with its single point cutting bit. You are lucky to have an engineering firm (in the US this would be a"Machine Shop") that will undertake one-off jobs like your custom adapter.

Full disclosure: I'm not a real machinist though I do play one on tour days at our local historical-industrial site and in my home shop. My interest in this was planted, in part, many many years ago when I bought my first large format lens and watched them bore out the lens board for it using a lathe.

David