Fred Picker

Alan Clark said:
OK, I get you now. And I have to say I disagree with most of what you are saying.
One of my favourite photographers is James Ravilious. He spent many years documenting rural life in North Devon. Content is of paramount importance in his photographs, and they are brimfull with humanity. But Ravilious also had a clear and strong idea about how the tonality of his prints should look, and the kind of lighting in which they should be taken. He went to a lot of trouble to test and select lenses for his Leica camera that would deliver what he envisioned, so he could make prints with a certain quality. A wonderful quality. You might describe this as fluff, but I see it as a way of backing up the visual content and strengthening the message in his work. The print quality is at the heart of his work. You can't separate it from its content.
But with your Christmas present and box analogy, the present is entirely separate from the box, because it has nothing to do with it.

Alan
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We will have to agree to differ here, as I think if there is one branch of analogue photography that may well die out first it's silver printing. I will mourn it of course, but it's time and space heavy ... when both are at premiums these days. Negatives make sense because they have a permanence that digital files simply can't equal, and in large format ... a quality that is unrivalled too. Prints can only reach an audience of one at a time, a scanned negative has the same ability to be disseminated as a digital camera file so makes sense for archival purposes and steering us away from the precipice of a digital dark age.
If traditional photography is to survive it must grow and embrace the digital workflow as well as the analogue one. We have an uphill battle to save film for future generations ... ones that may decide that gelatine is based on cruelty and that water is a resource best not wasted in washing film or prints. Part of what we have to do is to set aside our preconceptions and try new ways of doing things.
We may have to say we can have the box or the wrapping but not both.
 
Hello Marley, thanks for your reply. You say we have to set aside our preconceptions and try new ways of doing things. I agree. I have been scanning and printing my negatives digitally for about 20 years now, and really enjoy the process. I also print in my darkroom from time to time. I strive for good print quality in both, though the actual subject of the photograph is my primary concern. I remain convinced that good print quality is the way to best do justice to the subject of the photograph.

Alan
 
You may be right, but they are still making enlargers. There is hope.
Silver printing might well be moving into the alternative camp. I'd expect it to become a bit more alternative, but still persist for some time. You are right about the overuse of water in washing prints but there are other methods. Most of the water that passed through those elegant Perspex devices never got near the print. Will militant vegans take away the gelatinous part and will speculators make the silver too expensive? I can answer that last question – the astonishing cost of a few grammes of pigment hasn't reduced enthusiasm for digital printing.
 
Alan Clark said:
Hello Marley, thanks for your reply. You say we have to set aside our preconceptions and try new ways of doing things. I agree. I have been scanning and printing my negatives digitally for about 20 years now, and really enjoy the process. I also print in my darkroom from time to time. I strive for good print quality in both, though the actual subject of the photograph is my primary concern. I remain convinced that good print quality is the way to best do justice to the subject of the photograph.

Alan
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If photography always went with the general consensus then it would never have advanced :)
There is room for every approach
 
To All Present Predicting The Demise Of The Silver Print -

I was working in the recording business when the Moog synth first made it big ... and everyone predicted the demise of the piano.

I was around when "The Human League" produced the first popular album to significantly feature an electronic drummer ... and everyone predicted the death of drums and drummers.

But Steinway and Bösendorfer live on. So too do Tama and Zildjian.

New media rarely fully replaces old. More commonly what happens is that new branches in the field are introduced and thereby create entirely different artforms. Digital and Silver share a common ancestry but their expressions are fundamentally different. The sensor's HD curve isn't remotely like Tri-X nor is the inkjet output even slightly like VC paper. (Although people spend hours and funds trying to make digital look like silver, which never made sense to me.)

What does happen though is that the old becomes the precinct of the specialist, the passionate amateur, the auteur, and ... well .. some of us who are little bit daft. Volumes of work decrease and prices rise to accommodate the aforementioned. For example, the CD did not fully replace vinyl which is now enjoying a resurgence (though for most of the wrong reasons in my oh so humble opinion) and said vinyl sells at nosebleed prices.

Silver printing is going nowhere ... but up in price ;)

P.S. I have far too much film, paper, and chemistry in my reserves to give up just yet :p
 
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interesting
and I agree with a great deal of that.
I would argue that nowhere in human history has visual and communications media changed more (or as fast) than it has in the last 30 years since the rise of the internet. Sure in the past many arguably technically redundant technologies have become the preserve of the wealthy 'enthusiast' or a niche elite, however preserving the 'craft' of photography means encouraging young people to become involved, and for that it must be financially accessible. It's all very cosy to rub ones hands in glee at the rising prices when one can afford them. In order that silver printing be preserved and indeed grow again demand for paper stocks must rise in the way it has for film stock, so that its prices can stabilise - or sheer economics and lack of new blood will kill it off.
Incidentally, I'm heavily involved with the music industry because of my manufacturing company, and today the vast majority of popular music, and by that I mean Hip Hop, R&B, Drill, Garage etc features samples and synthesizers ... and is created in tiny rooms with no live instruments. This may be entirely UK based ... but I doubt it.
What we actually need are more community darkroom projects, where young people can come in and use space and equipment they otherwise couldn't afford. We need more colleges to reinstate darkroom space that was greedily gobbled up in the early 2000s, and we need to realise that there may be pressures against the use of gelatine, the disposal of chemicals and a host of other things that we have to find new ways to work around.
Yes I'm pessimistic about printing because unless it can be made to appeal to a new generation it will gradually disappear ... perhaps not in my lifetime, but soon.
 
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The major factor in the continuance of silver printing is the continuance of a manufacturing industry. For this, a certain level of demand is needed and for that, a minimum of users. So we need new recruits, quite independently of the quality of work they produce.
As we all know, wet darkroom prints can be made using artisanal processes like platinum or cyanotype. These require a good deal of enthusiasm and in practice are usually spin-offs from experience with conventional silver printing.
So, at the moment we may be safe, but the longer term does depend on recruitment of new cohorts of darkroom users, preferably young.
Darkrooms need space and it seems that housing space is increasingly limited, at least in the UK. (No need to debate the politics of this; everybody has failed.)
Community darkrooms seem like a good idea. A problem here is that you can’t know the magic of the darkroom until you’ve experienced it, so you have to have been in one before you know you need one and decide to pressure your local authority to include darkrooms in, for example, so-called leisure centres, or even to fund local camera clubs to do the same.
Inevitably, I suggest, the majority of recruits would be using smaller formats. That would be fine. It seems unlikely that anyone would make the jump from iPhone selfies to Sinar P in one mighty leap.
We can always hope.
 
David M said:
The major factor in the continuance of silver printing is the continuance of a manufacturing industry. For this, a certain level of demand is needed and for that, a minimum of users. So we need new recruits, quite independently of the quality of work they produce.
As we all know, wet darkroom prints can be made using artisanal processes like platinum or cyanotype. These require a good deal of enthusiasm and in practice are usually spin-offs from experience with conventional silver printing.
So, at the moment we may be safe, but the longer term does depend on recruitment of new cohorts of darkroom users, preferably young.
Darkrooms need space and it seems that housing space is increasingly limited, at least in the UK. (No need to debate the politics of this; everybody has failed.)
Community darkrooms seem like a good idea. A problem here is that you can’t know the magic of the darkroom until you’ve experienced it, so you have to have been in one before you know you need one and decide to pressure your local authority to include darkrooms in, for example, so-called leisure centres, or even to fund local camera clubs to do the same.
Inevitably, I suggest, the majority of recruits would be using smaller formats. That would be fine. It seems unlikely that anyone would make the jump from iPhone selfies to Sinar P in one mighty leap.
We can always hope.
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As soon as the spectre of Covid is no longer with us I will be trying my own initiative to get people interested in film photography. My aim in getting 5x7 equipment was to put together a 'pop up' portrait studio with processing and contact printing facilities to come in to schools, colleges and even under used London high street shops (where all sorts of other popups abound). My background as a theatre photographer means I'm pretty used to high pressure portrait work :) My stint teaching photography in further education means I'm a bit addicted to passing on knowledge.
In order to get kids interested we have to banish the stuffy elitism and make things fun ... cyanotype photograms, pinhole cameras, whatever it takes ... I'm as keen as the next person to keep printing going ... but we all need to do our bit to bring in new people.
 
It's worth noting that film continues to be a healthy business for both Kodak and Ilford along with other players. There are also still plenty of companies making paper. The big difference between now and just 10 years ago is the variety of choices.
 
thronobulax said:
It's worth noting that film continues to be a healthy business for both Kodak and Ilford along with other players. There are also still plenty of companies making paper. The big difference between now and just 10 years ago is the variety of choices.
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I think in the UK we may well have even less choice than the US ... especially as we have now decided to pull up the drawbridge and pretend we aren't Europeans :)
 
I dunno, most of the stuff I'm using here in the US comes from Urup ..

I never thought of you as Europeans. As a dual Canadian-American who lived in Continental Europe, I've always thought of you as the elder statesmen of the Anglosphere but what do I know ...
 
thronobulax said:
I dunno, most of the stuff I'm using here in the US comes from Urup ..

I never thought of you as Europeans. As a dual Canadian-American who lived in Continental Europe, I've always thought of you as the elder statesmen of the Anglosphere but what do I know ...
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An issue that has set brother against brother and divided a whole nation here. When we get over petrol and food shortages, supply chain breakdowns, a possible return to violence in Northern Ireland and the destruction of the fishing industry (soon to be followed by the beef industry after our trade deal with Australia) I'll let you know how regaining our sovereignty went. No I don't apologise for my politics ... and neither should anyone, social awareness and political stance has always played a part in creativity.
 
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Although I think you understate the disaster, and I'm privately applauding, this may not be the right place. My own lips are sealed.
 
Optimism is good for you, but remember this: the life of a pessimist is full of delightful surprises when things do go right and the deep satisfaction of being right when things go wrong.
 
my optimism never extends to any politician's 'ambidextrous posterior location' abilities ;)
 
Very realistic and sensible, sir.
Back to LF, perhaps?
We haven’t mentioned lenses and shutters. There’s now a fixed quantity of these in the world. How long will it last?
There seems to be good deal of enthusiasm for start-up companies in LF camera making, but can that extend to lens and shutters? I would imagine that the initial costs are much higher.
 
David M said:
Very realistic and sensible, sir.
Back to LF, perhaps?
We haven’t mentioned lenses and shutters. There’s now a fixed quantity of these in the world. How long will it last?
There seems to be good deal of enthusiasm for start-up companies in LF camera making, but can that extend to lens and shutters? I would imagine that the initial costs are much higher.
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I read somewhere that in the US you can buy glass lens elements mail order ... and some folks are sticking them in barrels and mounts. Guessing they are not coated ... though when I was a kid my dad used to coat his own lenses in my mum's oven ... probably highly toxic mind. Shutters should be easy with brushless motors and Arduino control ... you could make an electronic roller blind shutter fairly easily. Of course existing lenses can be re polished and recoated (my dad used to do that too) ... and purely mechanical shutters are not too awful to fix.
My field is electronic design and enginearing mostly ... I can rebuild and fix and retro engineer a lot of stuff ... but I envy my father's ability to design optics and grind lenses! At 97 he's a bit past his designing and building days.
 
Alan Clark said:
One of my favourite photographers is James Ravilious. He spent many years documenting rural life in North Devon.

Content is of paramount importance in his photographs, and they are brimfull with humanity. But Ravilious also had a clear and strong idea about how the tonality of his prints should look, and the kind of lighting in which they should be taken. He went to a lot of trouble to test and select lenses for his Leica camera that would deliver what he envisioned, so he could make prints with a certain quality. A wonderful quality.

The print quality is at the heart of his work. You can't separate it from its content.

Alan
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James was a wonderful photographer and I have seen an exhibition of his prints. Chris Chapman also made wonderful prints and was a friend of James.

If you ever come to Dartmoor, visit the Two Bridges Hotel for some refreshments. There is a permanent display of Chris's photos on the walls. They were taken on HP5 and it's replacement HP5 Plus all developed in Aculux. The prints were enlarged on Galerie paper. The prints are large and show some slight hints of grain on close inspection, but they are crisp and sharp with beautiful tonality.
Well worth a look.
 
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