Lens, shutter, lens board, threads and compatibility

sean_irving

sean_irving

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Hello everyone,

LF newbe here - hoping to get myself an Intrepid 4x5 or similar field camera in the next few weeks. From my research, I understand that I'll need a lens, shutter and lens board. I'm struggling to understand how shutters and lenses fit together, and which lenses and shutters are compatible. For instance, if I were to get something like this (1) then how would I go about working out which shutter to get (and where would you reccomend looking for one)? Or should I just go for a lens with a shutter included (something like this (2) or this (3) or this (4))? Would greatly appreciate your thoughts and advice!

Thanks,

Sean

Links:
(1) https://wycameras.com/collections/l...ucts/4x5-ross-5-inch-f-4-wide-angle-xpres-avg
(2) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Schneide...-5-6-MC-Copal-No-0-0-Camera-Lens/124642119657
(3) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Horseman...5x4-camera-Original-Case-and-Cam/203315701788
(4) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EXC-5-FU...o-Shutter-Wista-Board-from-JAPAN/384020930003
 
Well except for the first lens the Ross wide angle all the rest are in Compur/Copal/Seiko #0 sized shutters Copal mak them as N 0.0. This is the most common sized LF shutter and any post 1930 #0 shutter has the same size thread. US shutters differ.

You need a lens board for each lens, the Intrepid uses Linhof/Wista style boards so that Fujinon would fit, a lens board is just over £20 so keep that in mind. Make sure a lens has its retaining ring, that symmar doesn't so that would be around £15 to get one, this tightens the lens to the lens board.

That Ross lens is not worth touching they don't have a wide range of f stops and were made for military use plus they don't fit a shutter.

Ian
 
Best to get a lens in a shutter – Copal is the most common, followed by Compur. There are small differences, but they work in very similar ways. Some older lenses will be in a shutter that has old-style shutter speeds: 1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, 500. You can use these (they are often optically excellent) but an old shutter may be inaccurate anyway. Look for one with the modern doubling series.
A modern lens generally comes in two halves which screw into the front and back of the shutter. Then the whole thing is fixed into a lens board by means of a screw-on ring. To do this, you usually have to take off the rear lens cell, screw in the retaining ring and replace the rear cell.
Lens boards themselves can take any lens, provided that the hole is the right size, but the outer dimensions of the board are specific to particular cameras. Because of this, you can fit almost any LF lens to almost any LF camera – a valuable difference between LF and lesser formats. In fact, you could probably fit a milk bottle if you wanted to, with a little ingenuity..
There are three sizes of shutter in common use; 0, 1 and 3. Bafflingly, there is no Number 2. There are others, but these are by far the most common. For people with more than one camera, there are adaptor boards so that the smaller lens board can be fitted onto the larger one and this means you can use the same lenses on two different cameras. (That is, if they will cover the format of both.)
Cheap and excellent lens boards come from China, via eBay. If you know which side of a saw cuts, you can make you own.
You will need a cable release, and a spare one for when you drop it in the long grass, in the rain, in the dark, on a long weekend.
 
There was a rimset Compur #2 David it's rare, I checked and the 180mm f4.5 Xenar and 240mm f5.6 Symmar were sold in them atfter WWII. The rimset Compur 3 was quite late, Deckel still made Compound #3 shutters into the 50's or early 60's.

The Compound pre-dated the Compur and used a pneumatic piston for slow speed control, earlt Dial-set Compurs are essentially based on Compounds but with a clock-work slow speed controller.

For the OP Rim-set means a ring around the front of the shutter to control shutter speed, Dial set is a dial above the front lens cels to set the speed. Compoundm Ibsor,Prontor Press use this into the 1960's.

To complicate matters there's a Copal #3 and a #3a :D Here's some 1930's shutter details, the Rimset Compur shuttersv set an International standard in terms of fit.

In the past 10 days I've bought 5 NIB Gauthier shutters, Ibsor, Proro, Prontor, and all take German or Japanes, and British lens cells, ~00. #0.

Ian
 
Oh dear, I thought I was giving basic advice to a beginner.
You’re quite right of course. Just when you think you’ve mastered something, LF pops another baffling rabbit out of the hat.
I think we’re agreed that a fairly modern lens in a fairly modern shutter would be best to begin with.
 
Basic advice for a beginner is avoid a Compur #2 shutter, and even more so an electronic shutter, both are near impossible to get repaired. Luckilythe Compurn #2 was only used for a couple of lenses and the electronic shutters have a tell tale external battery housed on the top outside the main shutter body. Here in the UK though many MPP Micro Technicals were sold with a 180mm Xenar in a Compur #2 so they are around.

Another shutter to try and avoid is the Compur #00 used with very early 90mm f8 Super Angulons and 65mm f8 Super Angulons, it has no shutter pre-view lever and is small and fiddly also they have no T setting so to focus you need a locking cable release and set the Shutter to B. On T the first time you release the shutter it opens and stays that way, on second release it shuts, so different to B.

All rim-set Compur and Copal shutter for LF cameras except the Compur #00 have a pre-view lever or button to open the shuter for focussing, you still have to manually open the Aperture to focus. The one exception is the very expensive and rare Prontor Professional shutter which has Aperture as well as Shutter preview.

Ian
 
I’ve noticed that one of the examples in the original post is on sale from Japan. Japanese sellers are excellent, but if you buy from there, you will be subjected to a variety of unexpected extra charges when it enters the UK. Perhaps this is meant to protect our own flourishing LF optical industry.
I haven’t bought anything since Brexit, but I can’t imagine that it has made the situation any better.
 
You raise a good point David. Buyng from Japan is similar to buying from the US, First is the cost of the Iten AND shipping/postage, Import Duty is paid on that total then 20% VAT Compounded on top, then there's the delivery company's charge for collecting the taxes around £7. It usually adds a third, 33% to the cost. That would take that Fujinon from around £142 to £222 as the postage is high.

I used to buy from the EU but there's too much uncertainty on additional charges at the moment. There's also internal EU VAT issues as suppliers will soon have to charge the VAT rate of the customers country rather than their local rate and pay it to that country. This has been the case for eBooks for a few years and many companies closed because of it. It killed my friends business.

Ian
 
I was lucky enough to find my lens already in a board with a shutter at a local camera shop. I would love to get a Petzval lens as portraiture is my favourite genre but the idea of matching it to a shutter and board terrifies me!
 
Woz said:
I was lucky enough to find my lens already in a board with a shutter at a local camera shop. I would love to get a Petzval lens as portraiture is my favourite genre but the idea of matching it to a shutter and board terrifies me!
Click to expand...

Not as difficult as it sounds, I have a choice od 3 shutters to use with my 10" Petzval, first is a Thornton Pickard rolled blind shutter but larger ones are less common, a single speed Gitzo front mounting leaf shutter, and thirdly an Eye-lid shutter. However I have the Petzval mounted on a pre-Anniversary Speed Graphic which has a focal plane shutter.

Most people don't realise Gitzo made shutters, they were really only used on French made cameras which weren't exported. The owner/founder of Gitzo - Arséne Gitzhoven - held a number of Patents for his shutters in the 1930's, later models may have been compatible with Compur threads and like Compuurs were rim-set. Mine is a flash synch studio shutter made up until 1992 although most Gitzo shutter manufacture had ceased by 1962.

Ian
 
Thank you all so much for all the information, really useful to get advice from you all. I'll post on here again once I've got a camera and taken some images with it, but that might not be for a few months now.
 
There are three other kinds of shutter if you’re making portraits: caps for the proletariat, bowlers for the bourgeoisie and toppers for toffs. Presumably Royalty would need something special from Garrards.
 
Sean you should be able to get a good 150mm LF standard lens for around £200 here in the UK, surprisingly there's few listed on Ebay at the moment but they do turn up, just needs patience.

Ian
 
Ian Grant said:
There was a rimset Compur #2 David it's rare, I checked and the 180mm f4.5 Xenar and 240mm f5.6 Symmar were sold in them atfter WWII.
Click to expand...
There are also two different lens board holes for #2 shutters, I have both the 180 Xenar and the 240 Symmar, and they are both #2 shutters but you can't swap lens boards.
 
Well the major reason Compur redesigned their shtters around 1929 was to make manufacture more economic there were too many variations, three #0 shutters, a #1 and a #1a, and two #2, plus the #3 & #00, this co-incided with new optical glasses from Schott owned by CZJ and updated lens designs. That gave Deckel the impetus to simplify their range of shutters.

The modern rim-set #2 Compur shutters were quite late only introduced after WWII. I had a 240mm Symmar I'd guess from its age in a Compur #2 shutter but it was stolen. Schneider catalogues make no reference to any difference in #2 shutters but they were dropped as uneconomic to manufacture.

Ian
 
Ian Grant said:
Sean you should be able to get a good 150mm LF standard lens for around £200 here in the UK, surprisingly there's few listed on Ebay at the moment but they do turn up, just needs patience.

Ian
Click to expand...
Thanks Ian - good to get a rough guide price.
 
Further to my above newbee questions - does anyone have experience using an enlarger lens as a field lens? I have taken the plunge and bought an Intrepid 4x5 mkII kit (with slide holders, dark cloth, changing tent etc) from West Yorkshire Cameras, but it comes with a Schneider 150mm f/5.6 Componon (i.e. enlarger) lens, mounted on a lens board with a shutter. There seem to be conflicting view points on other forums, so was hoping someone could shed some light on this. From my understanding the englarger lens will be designed to focus very close with a flat image, and so may have problems with corner sharpness (effectively corners focussed beyond infinity) at longer working distances.

Not sure if this really deserces a post of its own, as it is a different topic really. If so, please do let me know :)
 
Yes, indeed. Do “Save this search” on eBay and you should get regular emails when something turns up. You’ll get far more than you want because eBay is very optimistic about its own suggestions, and doesn’t know much about LF photography.
 
Schneider sold the 135mm and 150mm Componon lenses (and short FL) in shutters as LF Macro lenses. I remember seeing a Sinar monorail with one some years ago in a camera store in Southampton. Performance at Infity is OK stopped down fo f22.

Ian
 
Ian Grant said:
Schneider sold the 135mm and 150mm Componon lenses (and short FL) in shutters as LF Macro lenses. I remember seeing a Sinar monorail with one some years ago in a camera store in Southampton. Performance at Infity is OK stopped down fo f22.

Ian
Click to expand...

Sounds like a sub-optimal landscape lens then. Maybe it'll be decent to get to grips with shooting LF but plan to upgrade soon
 
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