Issues With First Attempt At Pyrocat-HD Semi-Stand

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thronobulax

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I decided to experiment with semi-stand development and the results are ... not good. The negs appear to have almost no detail in them. Tech info follows in hope someone can spot something dumb I did. Meter, thermometer, and film are known good. I found this dilution and starting point from Sandy King on the web somewhere for Delta 100. While I realize this is quite different than APX 100, I thought I'd get *some* kind of results here:

Agfapan APX 100
EI 80
8 5x4 sheets developed in open tank with hangers
2L of Pyrocat-HD mixed 1.5:1:150 (20ml A, 13.33ml B, 2L distilled water)
5 minute prewash in running water
90 seconds initial continuous agitation
15 sec agitation at 15min and 30min mark

At first blush, there seems to be very little/no exposure detail on these negs.

Looking for dumb or obvious errors and/or suggestions for better times or dilutions.

TIA
 
I’m no expert on Pyrocat, but you are asking for “really dumb” ideas. Is it possible that the negs are actually underexposed? I only mention this because you do. It seems unlikely.
Recently I used a different meter and consistently mis-read fractions of seconds for whole seconds. With the reciprocity for Foma added in, I had negs I could use for blackout curtains.
 
It could be the case, but for the life of me, I don't know how. The meter is known to be accurate. I guess I can go see if there is a shutter problem, but that seems doubtful.


The negs are dry now and there is only the slightest hint of a latent image. This is film from a box I've developed conventionally with no issues.
 
I only use Pyrocat HD now, I began using it around 2004. I don't use semi-stamd because I get superb results using it normally and don'tsee the need.

My guess is that 1.5A + 1B to 150 is the issue 1+1 to 200 may be better.

Ian
 
@Ian Grant What is your experience with oxidation rates for N+ development? My normal time for APX 100 @ ASA 50 is about 12 min. What if I wanted to run out to, say, 18min for N+2? With PMK Pyro this is an issue because it oxidizes so fast it is necessary to have a second batch ready to pour and mix during the process.
 
I shot a lot of APX10 and AP100 in all formats before that, at the time I used Rodinal or Xtol (replenished) but always at box speed, however that was after some Zone System tests.

You won't have any issues with an 18min/20 min development time at 1+1 t0 100.

Ian
 
I've seen oxidation with Pyrocat HD in the past, but using a Jobo rotary processor and Paterson Orbital. Never tried it with semi-stand.

Did you buy your Pyro HD from Photo Formulary by any chance? There have been issues in the past with their mixes which resulted in almost transparent film with only the slightest hint of an image......at least for me.

Mike
 
I use a lot of Pyrocat-HD processing using all manner of techniques--EMA (extreme minimal agitation), minimal agitation, normal agitation, BTZS tubes, Jobo Expert Drums, and other various tanks for 5x4, roll film, and 35mm. The only time I've ever had unexpected very thin negatives is when my Pyrocat-HD stock had suddenly died. There are many posts and arguments about this on the 'net and I never pinned down why my stock encountered "sudden death" when others have it around for years (our own Ian G being one who can keep it for a lifetime! ;) ) Going the "dumb questions" route, how fresh is your stock?

Also, your dilution ratio seems odd to me and one I've never seen mentioned; not that that means anything. Most folks will increase B (the accelerator) to get slightly more development activity; say, 1A + 1.5B + 100 ml water. If you're concerned about N+2 development, you could go to 2+2+100 for increased contrast. I've used this dilution in the past for pt/pd printing.

Anyway, to provide a concrete example with Pyrocat-HD at 1:1:100 I routinely develop 10x8 Fomapan 100 with tanks/hangers for 15 mins @ 21C. Agitation is continuous for the first 30 secs, followed by 2 cycles (lift/left, lift/right, lift/straight, slight drop at end to dislodge any air bubbles) at the 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 time marks. Beautiful negs every time!
 
Thanks all for your comments. Some points of response:

  • This is freshly made stock as of 1/7/2021 as weighed and mixed by me
  • Ordinary development of APX 100 @ ASA 50, 20C for 13min produces very nice negs from that stock
At this point, I can only conclude that I somehow botched the mix or ratio of A/B in setting up the developer.

A larger question is this: Given the rather long development times, is semi-stand even worth it?
 
@Alan9940 When you use the 2:2:100 mix for increased contrast, do you then just maintain the same development time for that film? Does doing this noticeably impact visible grain?
 
thronobulax said:
A larger question is this: Given the rather long development times, is semi-stand even worth it?
Click to expand...

What's "worth it" is, of course, up to the individual photographer, yes? For me and the negs I like to get with Pyrocat, some form of more minimal agitation is desired. I will say, though, that in all my "testing" of Pyrocat I've found that even a couple of minutes between agitation cycles provides nearly all the benefits of longer cycles. It's really up to you. Personally, I find it very relaxing to stand in the dark waiting 3 - 7 mins between agitation cycles. This may drive other photographers bonkers! ;)
 
thronobulax said:
@Alan9940 When you use the 2:2:100 mix for increased contrast, do you then just maintain the same development time for that film? Does doing this noticeably impact visible grain?
Click to expand...

Generally, you may have to reduce development time at 2:2:100, depending on what you're trying to achieve. If I was trying to hit an N+2 development, I would start my testing using my normal development time at the higher concentration, then adjust from there.

Sorry, can't really say if it impacts visible grain because I'm usually doing this on 10x8 negs. Pretty much no grain there no matter what ya do! :)
 
thronobulax said:
@Alan9940 When you use the 2:2:100 mix for increased contrast, do you then just maintain the same development time for that film? Does doing this noticeably impact visible grain?
Click to expand...

I started using Pyrocat HD in 2003, with 35mm TriX, HP5 and Foma 400. These all have the same development time, and I found with the 1+1+100 dilution I needed 15 minutes of development for films taken in sunny conditions. To reduce what, at the time, seemed a long time to be standing about, I switched to 2+2+100, and found that this brought the time down to 10 minutes for the same level of development. There was a noticable increase in grain - this was 35mm film. But you won't notice the increase in grain with normal size enlargements from 5x4 negatives.

Alan
 
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